I’m always interested in the mind of religious people, what they conceive as thoughts and perceive reality. On top this hierarchy of divinity stands God, as the ultimate reality and authority. However, the term God has drawn numerous meanings and definitions, which have different reasons for existing. The deist’s God, the Muslim’s God and the Mormon’s God are identifiably different from one another, which makes definition more necessary. My particular focus will be the Christian God that too will be difficult to define as the thousands of denominations under Christianity have found on different ideas and images of God. However Rhology has provided an impressive list of attributes which God possesses (his God).
Omnipotence, Omniscience, Omnipresent, Living, Omnibenevolence, Incomprehensible, Almighty, Infinite.. just to mention a few. First, God is assumed to be a Being, therefore making the question of his existence relevant, he can not exist without substance or essence or else he is a void abstraction. His attributes must correspond with themselves to radiate a consistent coherent image.
God is said to be almighty and infinite, isn’t he bound first by his attributes? His powers and abilities cannot extend beyond what he has. He is confided by his nature and the limitations of it. Thus the term ‘AlMighty’ and ‘infinite’ is meaningless. By understanding the specific and particular characteristics of God, a picture of the limitations appear, casting light on the negatives of his character. For example, if he is absolutely good, then he can’t be bad.
In simple words, being omnipotent is to do anything and everything including the logical impossible. Also that one is a functioning being, capable of being part of a causal system. As far as the impossible goes, God can draw a square circle however that looks like, create something out of nothing, create a married bachelor, bring into existence meaningless; thus one can conclude that God if capable of the above, then he himself is logically impossible and meaningless.
The biggest argument for the necessity of God’s existence is the design the universe takes. For God as an omnipotent being to takes steps to carefully assemble the delicate universe with resulting complexity as a necessity and evidence for a hardworking designer, when a simple wish would have sufficed. Simply incoherent logic. An omnipotent being would not require a design, when he can transform chaos to act as order, or bend any means to whatever end,
God is living! Isn’t he just another life form! A dead matter or an abstract cannot hold inherent knowledge; both lack consciousness, awareness which is a prerequisite for being capable of having knowledge. A conscious being is necessarily life. Maybe, God is an example of life that is not threatened by nonexistence, however if he is omniscient, that puts predestination over the freewill doctrine. However that’s another topic for later. God is then a form of MATTER!
God is omnibenevolent that is he is all good. A creation is a mirror that reflects the creator, if God is all good, the universe will be all good with no space for evil. However, the natural disasters, genocides, wars, poverty, sufferings well indicate that our world is not at all good. Evil is the biggest problem that threatens Rhology’s God.
God is incomprehensible is the most baffling attribute, that God is beyond understanding and capture of knowledge. In other words, he is unknowable! Where did the knowledge of the aforementioned attributes got from? An unknowable being will be unknown and not known to be unknownable! This is an outrageous contradiction. A deeper examination of the character Rhology’s God reveals a void, a blank, nothing; best an aggregate of contradictions, inconsistencies and the illogical. The single supposed attribute betrays the fact that the prior attributes are unreal and not logically possible.
Rhology has this fascinating ‘worldview’ which gives him the licence to redefine reality, possibly accept voids, contradictions at least what other function can faith play?!
isn’t he bound first by his attributes?
ReplyDeleteWell, He's defined by them, yes.
Ie, He is good, and He is not evil. He is powerful and not weak.
Thus the term ‘AlMighty’ and ‘infinite’ is meaningless.
Not meaningless. they're just not the way you use them, but you need to make an argument as to why a Christian should think your definitions are normative for others.
God if capable of the above, then he himself is logically impossible and meaningless.
But He's not, so there you go.
For God as an omnipotent being to takes steps to carefully assemble the delicate universe with resulting complexity as a necessity and evidence for a hardworking designer, when a simple wish would have sufficed.
I'm sorry, but I don't know what this is supposed to mean or argue. Could you please clarify?
An omnipotent being would not require a design, when he can transform chaos to act as order, or bend any means to whatever end,
You mean when He can design?
I'm not sure you've fully thought this through yet. No one's claiming it took God some serious brainpower and time to design the universe. We are claiming He designed it, however. It just didn't tax Him.
God is then a form of MATTER!
You did not provide a valid argument to arrive at this conclusion. You merely asserted that life form = material. You need to argue for that assertion.
A creation is a mirror that reflects the creator, if God is all good, the universe will be all good with no space for evil.
Unless He wills that evil occur, such that a greater good may take place, such as the sacrifice of Jesus for sinners on the Cross.
You need, again, to argue for this statement, not merely assert it.
Evil is the biggest problem that threatens Rhology’s God.
I'd like to know how, if my God doesn't exist, you are able to objectively identify anything as evil.
Seems to me that God is necessary for evil to exist. If He didn't exist, nothing would be good or evil. There would simply be existence, but no normativity, no values, no OUGHT.
Please prove me wrong.
God is incomprehensible is the most baffling attribute, that God is beyond understanding and capture of knowledge. In other words, he is unknowable!
The statement you quoted from me was from the London Baptist Confession of Faith, 1689. In context they did not mean TOTALLY unknowable; they meant that He is too vast to be fully comprehended.
Peace,
Rhology
The Christian god is most often defined by what it is not - infinite, intangible for example.
ReplyDeleteAlan, and other people like him, get tied up in knots when trying to define their non-existent deity, it's all very messy.
"isn’t he bound first by his attributes?
ReplyDeleteWell, He's defined by them, yes.
Ie, He is good, and He is not evil. He is powerful and not weak."
Yes, you getting the point, he cannot do what's beyond what he is defined by
"God if capable of the above, then he himself is logically impossible and meaningless.
But He's not, so there you go."
he had can do the logical impossible, is logically impossible
"For God as an omnipotent being to takes steps to carefully assemble the delicate universe with resulting complexity as a necessity and evidence for a hardworking designer, when a simple wish would have sufficed.
I'm sorry, but I don't know what this is supposed to mean or argue. Could you please clarify?"
the problem with an omnipotent being and design; design being the necessary adaptation of means to achieve the desired end,is a limitation an omnipotent being, who can rather bend any means regardless of its inherent function to any end.
"God is then a form of MATTER!"
i followed the thought that if God was capable of holding knowledge, then he is conscious and aware; and both are the preserves of life and life is necessarily matter. One of the attributes said he was living!
"Evil is the biggest problem that threatens Rhology’s God.
I'd like to know how, if my God doesn't exist, you are able to objectively identify anything as evil.
Seems to me that God is necessary for evil to exist. If He didn't exist, nothing would be good or evil. There would simply be existence, but no normativity, no values, no OUGHT.
Please prove me wrong."
Evil as defined by the Catholic Encyclopedia is 'the sum of the opposition, which experience shows to exist in the universe, to the needs of individuals' i have mentioned to you that man instinctively craves for survival, and evil is the obstruction, barrier, limitations that beset full development of his powers and means to attain this aim. Acts the count as evil include death itself. Tragic. Genocide, diseases, natural disasters, rape, slavery, war are all evil. Evil is linked with morality, the difference is morality is created by society, for its own survival with values classified as good and bad. Morality frowns at evil, but sometimes accepts evil. Evils like self defence is seen by society as a necessary evil, likewise war.
The frustration of purpose of man as a result of the evil effects of nature, diminishes the prospect of a Perfect Creator.
"God is incomprehensible is the most baffling attribute, that God is beyond understanding and capture of knowledge. In other words, he is unknowable!
The statement you quoted from me was from the London Baptist Confession of Faith, 1689. In context they did not mean TOTALLY unknowable; they meant that He is too vast to be fully comprehended."
Oh! he is not fully comprehended, but that is different from incomprehensible. He could be fully comprehensible at a time in the future. Pls clarify that position better. Nevertheless if he is not fully comprehended, then there is the a huge room of error that could made about him, some of the attributes might not be accurate. God could even be the Devil!
Well written analogy of God. You couldthe skip to thethe obvious factthe god is merely a myth. But you present good examples that will SHOW god is a illusion.
ReplyDeleteNow on to the last rebuttal:
Your god is a mental malfunction. You have no evidence of God. No proof to assert his existence outside a maliciously misinterpreted gut feeling.
God is the CREATOR of good AND evil. Therefore not benevolent.
God knows the heart of his creation. Therefore no free will.
This debate will go round and round until people realize faith is that WITHOUT PROOF. You will NEVER prove your god. He is a personification of human morality and the devil represents chaos.
get off your high horse.
Pardon the typos. I am on a phone
ReplyDeleteIf we only know a tiny amount about the nature of the Christian god, isn't it entirely possible that the remainder of what we could find out might prove our knowledge to be completely wrong? (Not that I believe in any gods, just turning a TAG argument back against them)
ReplyDeletehe cannot do what's beyond what he is defined by
ReplyDeleteYes. That's hardly surprising, that He would match His attributes. ;-)
who can rather bend any means regardless of its inherent function to any end.
That's just an assertion in search of an argument.
if God was capable of holding knowledge, then he is conscious and aware; and both are the preserves of life and life is necessarily matter.
You need to argue that life is necessarily matter.
Evil as defined by the Catholic Encyclopedia
Why did you use a theistic source to define evil when I asked YOU to define it?
'the sum of the opposition, which experience shows to exist in the universe, to the needs of individuals'
This is a great reason (again) to reject Roman Catholicism. I reject this definition, as it is totally unbiblical.
Anyway, if that is what you think evil is, please give me a reason to think it is true. Now that you have described your position, I would like you to argue for it.
The frustration of purpose of man as a result of the evil effects of nature, diminishes the prospect of a Perfect Creator.
Not when seen against the backdrop of the biblical narrative. Unfortunately, you haven't given much evidence of being familiar with the Bible.
he is not fully comprehended, but that is different from incomprehensible.
Correct.
. He could be fully comprehensible at a time in the future.
I suppose from that one statement, one could conclude this, yes.
However, when one considers that the LBCF1689 is cut out of the cloth of the Bible, one realises that this is actually impossible. God is infinitely vast. We will never comprehend ALL of Him.
then there is the a huge room of error that could made about him
Unless He had also revealed that He never lies and that He has told us some things about Him for certain.
hi Firebug,
You have no evidence of God.
You too believe plenty of things without evidence, so I don't see why this should bother me much.
Please let me know why this is a serious argument.
God is the CREATOR of good AND evil. Therefore not benevolent.
What gives you the idea that He created evil?
God knows the heart of his creation. Therefore no free will.
On atheistic naturalism, human beings and their brains are nothing more than collections of chemicals that interact with each other according to their inherent properties.
Sodium reacts with water. Your brain fizz reacts with itself. There's no thinking there, no room for volition.
If you shake up a can of Coke and also a can of Pepsi and put them on two sides of a table, will anyone ask who's winning the debate?
Alex B,
If we only know a tiny amount about the nature of the Christian god, isn't it entirely possible that the remainder of what we could find out might prove our knowledge to be completely wrong?
No, because God does not lie and He has reliably revealed facts about Himself. If you want to talk about a God that could lie, then you'd need to find someone who believes that and ask them, but you're not talking about the God of the Bible anymore.
Ironically, this is a critique much better applied to your own position.
If we only know a tiny amount about the nature of reality and the universe, isn't it entirely possible that the remainder of what we could find out might prove our knowledge to be completely wrong?
Since that is true on atheism, and there's zero assurance that anyone is telling the truth, I conclude that atheism has an extremely low probability of being true.
"if God was capable of holding knowledge, then he is conscious and aware; and both are the preserves of life and life is necessarily matter.
ReplyDeleteYou need to argue that life is necessarily matter"
Inductive reasoning got me there. Pls falsify
"God is the CREATOR of good AND evil. Therefore not benevolent.
What gives you the idea that He created evil?"
We are working on the assumption that you believe God is the CREATOR OF EXISTENCE, thus what was not created by him cannot exist.
"then there is the a huge room of error that could made about him
Unless He had also revealed that He never lies and that He has told us some things about Him for certain."
And he is not fully comprehensible?! As long as you dont, then he could be BIG LIAR
Atheists don't have a worldview. I'm humanist and live my life accordingly not to 'atheist worldview'
"The frustration of purpose of man as a result of the evil effects of nature, diminishes the prospect of a Perfect Creator.
Not when seen against the backdrop of the biblical narrative. Unfortunately, you haven't given much evidence of being familiar with the Bible."
You have not expressed the value of the Bible, so for now there is no reason to take such literature to contain ultimate truths
Inductive reasoning got me there. Pls falsify
ReplyDelete1) How did you observe that life is only matter?
2) I did not make the positive claim that life is only matter. This is your show - you give a reason to think this is true.
What gives you the idea that He created evil?"
We are working on the assumption that you believe God is the CREATOR OF EXISTENCE
Yes, but existence != evil.
Part of the creation is beings with volition. They are the source of evil, not God. They chose it.
And he is not fully comprehensible?! As long as you dont, then he could be BIG LIAR
This misunderstands the confession, and I've already explained this to you. Please take into account what I've already said.
Atheists don't have a worldview. I'm humanist and live my life accordingly not to 'atheist worldview'
Possibly you mean "atheisM is not a worldview in and of itself". Every person has a worldview whether s/he realises it or not.
When I say "atheistic worldview", I mean all worldviews that are atheistic, but I will refer to humanism from now on (unless I slip up and forget, in which case I ask you to correct me until I remember it).
You have not expressed the value of the Bible, so for now there is no reason to take such literature to contain ultimate truths
Did you already forget what you said a few lines above?
"We are working on the assumption that you believe God is the CREATOR OF EXISTENCE, thus what was not created by him cannot exist."
If you want to critique my beliefs, critique MY BELIEFS. Don't import other assumptions into the mix when critiquing MY BELIEFS. To do so would be to commit the same error that Alex B did on our podcast.
"Inductive reasoning got me there. Pls falsify
ReplyDelete1) How did you observe that life is only matter?
2) I did not make the positive claim that life is only matter. This is your show - you give a reason to think this is true."
All the life known to man via science is matter
"What gives you the idea that He created evil?"
We are working on the assumption that you believe God is the CREATOR OF EXISTENCE
Yes, but existence != evil.
Part of the creation is beings with volition. They are the source of evil, not God. They chose it."
if God didn't create evil, and man did so, then man can create something out of nothing too right? by your worldview is man evil?
"This misunderstands the confession, and I've already explained this to you. Please take into account what I've already said."
Its a POSSIBILITY that he is a liar, isn't it?
All the life known to man via science is matter
ReplyDelete1) This does not answer my first question - All the life known to man via science is matter?
2) How do you know this is true? Have you interviewed everyone who has ever studied the issue?
3) How do you know that all those involved in those scientific endeavors got it right?
4) How do you know that science is able to access this question?
if God didn't create evil, and man did so, then man can create something out of nothing too right?
Man did not create evil out of NOTHING.
by your worldview is man evil?
Yes, through and through. Romans chapter 3.
Its a POSSIBILITY that he is a liar, isn't it?
No.
Oops, I meant:
ReplyDelete1) This does not answer my first question - How did you observe that life is only matter?
(Hint: I didn't ask you about "man".)
Something strikes me.
ReplyDeleteRhology said 'God did not create evil, man chose evil.'
Or something along that line.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but did God not create man? If God created man, can we not then say that God created the capacity for both evil and good in man, therefore God planted the seed for evil?
I'm a little lost.
Like I said, correct me if I'm wrong.
Oh, with this whole issue of God's existence or non-existence. If I were to believe anything, I'd say "God created us, good and evil, and left us to our 'gifts' that we may make of the world what we want."
Oh, also, why are people referring to God as 'He'? Last time I checked, gender was only subject to humans, and is God not human? Or did I miss a memo?
Oops, wrong use of words. God is not human, I meant.*
ReplyDeleteYes, you're right to say God planted the seed for evil. That's not perfectly put, but close enough for our purposes.
ReplyDeleteGod revealed Himself as a "He", so that's why we use "He".